[quote=Eternum Praetorian]
Space democracies donGÇÖt work (as we have seen).

I love blind, unsupported assertions! Please, tell me more - in fact, construct an entire convoluted argument around your unsupported assertion, then attach it to some kind of ridiculous, impractical idea!

You're not even using key terms correctly. Opinions and demographics are significantly operationally different.

If people want to make an argument that the CSM process needs to be improved so as to increase participation, especially among certain underrepresented groups, then fine, make that argument.

If people want to suggest a more robust system of information gathering that CCP, the CSM, and players in general can access to better understand the playerbase's ideas and sentiments, then fine, let's do that.

However, replacing a group of elected advisers with some questionnaire is an absolutely terrible idea. The issues are far too complicated and diverse to be summarized by 100s of "do you like X" questions. Eve is a complex product that is used to vastly different degrees and in vastly different ways across a broad spectrum of people; it is not a tube of toothpaste with around 3 working parts that people can easily and nearly-universally summarize with a few simple points. This is a shockingly childish proposal, made all the worse by your weak argumentation.

Multimillion dollar companies as a group do many things that they all don't do as individual companies or with every product.

Please find us an example of a product reasonably analogous to Eve and demonstrate how this method is used.

Again, after all that effort you fold so quickly from the simplest and, honestly, generously-framed questions.

Who do you think you're going to convince when you can't offer even the simplest support for your most basic foundational assertions?

You beat me to it, but yeah, I'm reasonably content with CSM6's achievements. Not that you haven't made a few mis-steps, but where it counts, you've got the result we needed.

Of course, when EP means "space democracies don't work" he actually means "I am mad that 2 goons got elected".

Running an alliance in an internet spaceship game is just like a focus group, because... ?

You're doing the unsupported blind assertion thing again.

Yeah but nobody believes you.

Trebor tried it and it didn't work. The current CSM has done an excellent job of voicing the players' concerns to CCP and just because you don't like Goons being on the CSM doesn't change that fact.

Very little of the CSM duties could be replaced by some sort of complicated polling system (which, BTW, would get even lower participation than the CSM elections. People only had to vote once for those, not tens or hundreds of times for your proposal).

A fair amount of our work is having CCPers show us an idea for an upcoming release and get feedback on it, before they go public and destabilize markets/**** people off. A lot of our work is at the summits where we can brainstorm and discuss ideas in detail. Neither of these two would be possible with your system.

In general, just about everyone on the CSM, including Mittens, will post reasonable replies to reasonable questions. For example, look at this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6935

If people post trolling threads, they will get trolling responses.

He's politely sayin your plan isn't going to work and given you refuse to respond to feedback because we all obviously suffer from "reading comprehension" issues no one is taking you seriously anymore.

Thank you for literally making my point for me.

That's fine. It's impossible to have a conversation with you because you are completely unwilling to see the flaws in your arguments and your willful ignorance isn't going to rally people to your cause.

I think the really interesting conclusion that can be drawn from your original proposal is that more people would vote for the CSM if doing so involved seeing random pictures of almost-naked ladies. They might even try to vote more than once...

Even better if the voters themselves could upload their own pictures of almost-naked ladies which would then be displayed to other voters!

It will accomplish nothing but it lets him take a swipe at Goons on the CSM while pretending to be above hating Goons. I mean it's not like he's been able to provide an actual example of how the current CSM has hurt the game in any way.

Until you can provide an example of how the current CSM is hurting the game being a Goon hater is the only thing that makes sense.

So, you're not able to give a clear and concise answer to my question, then?

And by "play with you", you mean "oh dear god I can't answer that question, quick, distract him!". Gotcha.

It's not like my questions should be hard to answer. "What problem does your solution solve, and why, specifically, does the CSM need to be replaced?"

I guess what I should be asking is what is the problem he's trying to get CCP to address through this, and what's wrong with the way these things are being handled right now?

So now rather than having players voice our opinions and force change... we just send CCP data and what.... twiddle our thumbs hoping for change?

You yourself have already admitted that the CSM isn't an issue, thus, this entire thread is completely pointless.

Surely your polling/voting/whatever it is scheme could co-exist with the CSM?

Gotta love how he's now telling CSM member's how their own position works.

If a player sees the CSM tag and thinks they are a CCP rep then they are wrong.

Just because someone thinks I am the pope doesn't make it so.

CSMs are player advocates, liasons to CCP on behalf of the players, they are the players voice, not CCP's voice to the players. ISDs and GMs are completely different to the CSM.

If the CSM were reps of CCP then I am sure Hilmar would have fired half of them for the agitation they've been raising (on behalf of us) the last 6 months.

If you think the CSM is a rep of CCP, then you're just wrong, sorry.

Demographics

EVE Online needs demographic oversight at the corporate level in Iceland. Professionals need to be gathering data and applying it to the game play, not just taking a few peoples word for it. We also need some mechanism that will allow CCP to collect this data, and I don't mean these garbage forums. We need poles, info on who lives where and why they are living there. EVE needs to be analyzed in a more scientific way in order to better it and take it into the next decade.


We do not need people buying a CSM seat with Plex's or large alliances exploiting a voting system with multiple accounts. We need much better CCP oversight of their own game and we need realistic goals and expansions based upon what the Demographics reveal about EVE Online.

Thank you for telling us what Hilmar thinks. You can read minds now too? What he said, and what you just said, have a very fine line between them.

And he never said he will be "keeping them untill the end of the year". its not his place to "keep" any of the CSM. They have their term until the end of the year, no matter what Hilmar "thinks". And they they are going to have a meeting with CSM, and discuss things, including these concerns.

I have your designated pole right here in my pants.

It is what it is.
Its twisting the words for your own benefit. You have your own view on the problem, and you try to push it on the others as the "right one". And you try to put words in the mouth of others, so it would seem they support you. And the worst thing... you fail at this.

In other words, you got nothing.


So you, uh, propose to get at this information by ignoring the information CCP already has at their fingertips, which is verifiable if they're just not being incompetent about it, and go for the opinions of players who can actually be arsed to spend their time filling out questionaires instead of playing the game?

I see literally no way this can go badly.

Translation: "yipe yipe yipe please don't hit me massa I'll be good"

No, it's more that your suggestion is a bad one, it would lead to lower quality data for CCP, and you still haven't come up with a single good reason to replace the CSM.

Did we manage to scare Eternum away?

Prove it.

And this is where you realized you've lost the argument and turned to straight up trolling.

I hear Eternum Praetorian regularly engages in sexual intercourse with over six different species of farm animal.

Prove otherwise.

Yes, the thread where you repeatedly reveal yourself to be a moron is still at the top of the forum. Good job!

Vlade Randal, is that you?!

Prove that you're not one of my alts.

Unsubbing tells CCP you're mad enough to protest in this manner, but it doesn't tell them WHY. It also doesn't necessarily give CCP a good indication as to what needs to be changed, or how it should be changed. There's been a disturbing amount of examples where CCP have shown that they're dangerously out of touch with how the game actually plays, and for that reason alone we need someone who's actually playing the game to tell CCP that they're being ******** when they are, in fact, being more ******** than usual.

I don't really care who does this, as long as there's a certain retardation filtering mechanism so EVE doesn't degrade further than it already has.

CSM is quite proficient at falsely taking the credit, though. Gotta give 'em that .

You aren't fooling anybody by posting with an alt.

Sorry you got caught.

And since it hasn't been asked yet on this page: What has the CSM done that's so horrible they need to be replaced?

I'm a firm believer in the method of hiring professionals to get this kind of job done.
You know... people who tend to work with real numbers, facts. Stuff that produces quantifiable results in a fast, reliable and efficient manner.

Are you saying, however, that none of the upcoming changes are due to the current CSM's influence?

Ok, guess we can just disband CSM right now then, we obviously don't need them.

Yet you post at the exact same time as Eternum...

Look at the timestamps for posts 125, 126 and 127. You're bad at this whole sock puppet thing.

Yes you're getting good at it. Hopefully you won't get caught so easily next time.
As for differing opinions...well we still don't know what yours is since you haven't explained why the CSM needs to be replaced. Would you care to do so now?

Eternum Praetorian, doing the troll thing wrong since 2010.

Link to one of the posts. I'm assuming all those posts are done by your sock puppets since I couldn't find any under your name.

Translation: I don't know. Please stop asking.


Translation: please stop bumping this thread so I don't have to be reminded of it.

So.. so children.... No need to figth over spilled milk.
Damage is done.
bf3 anyone ?

You know, talking to yourself is a first sign.

Btw, if you want to prove you are not alt of whatever, there is an easier, more efficient and trustworthy method than TS servers. Its called API key.

ofc no one will bother making a date with some pubbie shitposter to prove something. Well unless you offer to bring flowers and champagne.

I guess if we assume you have no real life friends or acquaintances and have managed to completely alienate your family then yeah.

And no, im not a harlot alt. And i dont give a frack about your childish squablle here.

On the other hand, if you are completely different characters, you should have no associations with each other whatsoever. No trades, no isk flow. And unlike voice check, you cannot set it up, if there was already some interactions there. You cannot remove them.

No. No, they don't. Every time you're pushed for specifics, you evade or insult. Every time.

So how many questions do you anticipate a normal poll should have? And would these polls be an ingame thing, or something to do during login?

Looking at the whole CSM thing there are multiple entities doing this. First you have only a tiny fraction of your customers electing a council, and then that council channels information with a very strong bias. It then relays that information to a few persons within the company, you then relay it over to where it matters, again with a bias.

The problem I see with the polls is that if it's in-game, people like me (who'll make more isk than whatever poll can generate when logged out) will just flat out ignore it. If it's during login, people like me'll get pissed off and just select whatever they need to select just to get past it. It's not called polls online.

As to this:

So you've spent 9 pages evading answering exactly this question, and finally, when MaiLina KaTar does the job for you, you jump on it?

Ok.

Farts in public.

you got outposted son, its no shame to lose to the best

and believe me you got plenty to be ashamed of so no need to add another pebble to that mountain

Awesome argumentation there. A+.

So you're arguing that CCP doesn't have a possibility to get a metric fucktonne of data out of the userbase's usage etc in real-time and trends over an extended period of time, along with getting a feel for the userbase's opinions by trawling the forums?

Are you saying they do?
Please tell me precisely how they can?

I hate surveys.

Nice to see some other people posting in here other than Eternum and all his alts. Too bad for him that none of them agree with his lame ideas and he now has to resort to fart jokes to keep his thread bumped.

The common players like Mittens. At least he doesn't have to resort to sock puppetry to get his point across.

Nope. But it is sad to see somebody resorting to alt posting to make himself look better.

now this is just pathetic most third graders would be immensely ashamed to have such childish retorts

As I said before, the loudmouth trolls just don't want other voices to be heard (TM)

Still not a single like vOv, at this point I'm just bumping it to see how many more people jump in, read this, and realize how completely and utterly insane you are.

did you lose a mining barge?

i want his voice to be heard in every ccp employees ear for a week straight to hammer into their skulls why they should never listen to any highsec pubbie ever

True so fare and done periodically if I remember correctly.

But relying any decision making process exclusively on demographics creates a fail of objectives generated through demographics.
No one could hinder any of the big alliance to give word, even pre-formulated answers to their members to tamper the questionnaire in their favor. In this case the human factor (CSM) is to prefer over sole demographic results as addition to the base of the decision making process and was as such intended.

The human factor always indicates complications on the way to the anticipated result but that is another story already being told elswhere on the trustworthiness, or the lack thereof, of formations of any kind or brand allowed to be on the table.

I don't suppose you'll take a stab at explaining how this mystical process works, then?

Didn't think you would. I'm postulating you don't understand it yourself, or you wouldn't be this evasive about it.

You just said it yourself, we don't understand the process. I obviously can't describe a process I obviously don't understand, I must have it explained to me. vOv

So what makes you qualified? The fact that you think you understand but will not tell anyone else how you think it should work?

If you cannot explain your idea, then you dont understand it yourself.

If your idea is too complex for average player to come, ask and get explanation, then this idea and this thread is not qualified to be on these boards.

Then this thread should be closed. Since you as OP, obviously have no interest in keeping it alive and adequate to its original purpose.

PS. let me join the game.
NO U!

Unlike when I ask you about why the CSM should be replaced, then you just deflect and/or call me names.

But as to demographics as it pertains to EVE, I don't suppose you've got a specific demographic profile in mind?

Yeah. That's what I knew you'd say. My postulation stands.


This is my main?